During the DVD comentary for part III, Bruce Timm claims that the short white frame shown during Hawkgirl getting slapped had a special image for the fans. I couldn't freeze frame it on my Xbox 360. Does anyone know what it was? Superbatman 13:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Continuity notes removal
Hey Thailog, it looks like we're at it again:
1) Each entry in the section detailing Shayera's hidden history contains the qualifier "probably" or "most likely;" they are assumptions on our part without any in-show proof to back them up. Despite the fact that I myself agree with the points presented, that doesn't change the fact that it's our opinion.
2)The votes are, again, never revealed to us (the viewers). The only definite facts we know are John recused himself, Superman voted for Shayera, and the other four were split 50/50. We can make a deduction based on their personalities and opinions, but it's still a conclusion that we have reached that might very well be way off base, and we have no on-screen (Or off-screen) support one way or another.
3) "Hunter's Moon" is mentioned twice, and the oysters and freeze gun simply describe an event that took place during the show, they're simply plot points that belong in the "Plot summary" section. JBK405 22:58, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
- If the problem are the qualifiers, then rephrase or reword the statements. They are not conjecture, but educated guesses based on what we see on-screen (Hawkgirl's reactions) and on what we find out (her hidden history).
- Again, educated guesses based on character, though I agree they are better suited for the trivia section then for the continuity one.
- I missed "Hunter's Moon" being mentioned twice, but I fail to see how the oysters and freeze gun references are plot points since at least the latter is mentioned in conjuncture with another episode, i.e. pertinent to continuity.
I'm undoing your last edit because when someone wants to remove such large amounts of information that is not is violation of any policy, the onus does not fall on who wants to keep it. So you need to gather consensus, not the other way around. Also, in the future please pay attention to what you undo. You unduly reversed the edits made by another editors in-between our changes. BTW: these are not "production notes" they are continuity references. ― Thailog 23:28, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
Fair point about the other editor, I'll be more careful in the future, but what I removed does violate our policy; it's all either conjecture or redundant. I quote from the official policy page: "The goal of the DC Animated Universe Wiki is to present the information seen in DCAU shows in a canonical, encyclopedic format. Therefore, we disallow fanon information, and do not we make assumptions based on what is seen or said on-screen. We simply report what was shown without drawing inferences or making judgments on the information presented" (BTW, there's a grammatical error in there, I'm going to go fix that once we're done with this).
There a dozen possible interpretations for everything suspicious Hawkgirl does, picking one (No matter how logical or probable) is "drawing inferences or making judgments on the information presented."
"While fighting Doctor Fate in "The Terror Beyond, Part I" she recognized some Thanagarian runes, and instantly demanded him to disclose what he knew about Thanagar, in a very aggressive demeanor. Again, she was most likely concerned that Fate might jeopardize her mission." Sure, it's possible she was worried he might blow her cover, or, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, maybe she thought he had information that could be used to help Thanagar in the war with the Gordanians and she was pursuing that lead in her usual aggressive style.
"Then, in Part II, when J'onn suggested that Brainiac's data banks might have something about Thanagar, she was suspiciously dismissive for someone who allegedly wanted to return home." It might be suspicious for someone who wants to return home, but it's perfectly normal for someone concerned about her friends. J'onn does the exact same thing when Morgan Le Fay offers to restore Mars and he in turn destroys the Philosophers Stone; he choses to not try to bring his family back, and instead helps his friends because the price was "too high," just as it is here (If Shayera takes the time to find Thanagar then her friends die). Yes, it's not a perfect analogy, but he's turning his back on what he wants to protect those he cares about without any sort of hidden or ulterior motive, it's not "suspicious" or representative of her fear of discovery, it's a logical reaction of someone concerned about friends and loved ones.
The point being that there are other, variable explanations that make just as much sense, and we can't pick one because we think it's the right one.
I'm not removing what I think is wrong or goes against my own opinions, like I said I agree with most of these points, but they're still theory and conjecture that have no basis being in this article. JBK405 23:32, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
- You make some good points, but you simply neglect the fact that in the audio commentary for "Starcrossed" Bruce Timm flat out stated that he planned this arc since the beginning of season 2 and planted clues here and there. These are the only possible clues dealing with Hawkgirl and her secret mission. Therefore, that information is not merely conjecture based only on what is said and seen on-screen, but in conjuncture with the creators' declared intent. Also, it should be noted that the conjecture policy mainly pertains to the main body of articles. That section is reserved for what is seen, period. However, we don't preclude supported conjecture from the Background information section as long as it's clearly identified as such and we don't mislead the reader to interpret it as canon. ― Thailog 23:51, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
No, I've heard the commentary, and I know this was planned for quite a while, before Starcrossed itself was written, and these might very well be clues, but they might be different clues than this article says. As I said before, when Hawkgirl starts yelling at Dr. Fate it forshadows something, but maybe it's her hope that he might have some secret knowledge to help Thanagar, not that he might know her missions. Maybe she's thinking that, with his magical powers and experience with Thanagars primordial gods, he can give them an edge over the Gordanians. Do I think that is really what it's about? No, I think it's probably exactly as stated in the article, but that theory fits the evidence exactly as well. All her odd actions can be ascribed to other motives than her fear of her cover and mission being compromised; I actually thought of a new one right now while typing this: In Twilight, her subdued "No, there's no time" refusal to search through Brainiacs data files might not reveal her fear of discovery, but rather forshadow her later betrayal of Thanagar, since in his information is probably data on a way to defeat the Gordanians, but she is forgoing a search for that to save the Justice League, exactly as she does at the end of the season.
We're doing exactly what it is that police/lawyers/historians do in real life: Looking at the facts and deducing what happened by determining what fits the evidence; the problem is that we're not supposed to do that. We're CSI, not detectives; we just collect the evidnece, it's for others to determine what it means (Sorry for the clumsy cop metaphor, I'm currently re-reading Gotham Central).
Oh, and I switched the title over to "continuity," I don't know how I messed that up. JBK405 00:02, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, then I propose we leave the facts and remove the assumptions, as obviously there can be many. ― Thailog 00:08, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
That's been my point all along; like I said, I'm not removing this info because I don't like it, I'm removing it because it's conjecture, and that's a big no-no here. JBK405 00:10, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe a bit late to chime in: most of the Shayera-related trivia was added by one anon (with the following IP's: 220.127.116.11, 18.104.22.168, 22.214.171.124, 126.96.36.199 and probably more.) It's been deleted on other pages as well for being pretty much fan wank. -- Tupka217Talk 06:05, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
By your command
No comment on the fact that the Thanagarians use the Cylon "By your command." when taking orders? Davinjax 19:41, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
How did Bruce know the Flash is Wally West? Pborri 19:00, April 10, 2011 (UTC)
- They don't call him the world's greatest detective for nothing and we already know how Batman knew Superman's secret identity. Pborri 20:24, April 10, 2011 (UTC)
- Wally's a public servant - specifically, he's employed by the Coast City PD. That's enough of a papertrail for Batman to track you home. I think the bigger question is, how the hell did Shayera know where the Batcave is? It's not like he went around telling the entire Justice League his secret identity before Starcrossed Pt II. (Superman knew and Wonder Woman... somehow just guessed it.) She just blithely shows up at Batman's secret lair in Gotham and no one seems at all concerned that she knows where they were. In fact, she knew exactly where to go, and located one of the outside entrances, something that I'm pretty sure Batman wouldn't tell some alien chick he works with sometimes. In fact, she got into the cave without triggering an intrusion alarm, which seems even more unlikely. Atypicaloracle (talk) 19:58, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Anyone have proof Larry Cedar and Javier Grajeda were really credited as appearing in this episode?
Just curious because the "Behind The Voice Actors" doesn't credit either of them as appearing among the voice cast for the show. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 15sturmelle (talk • contribs).
- I'm not sure on Cedar (I'd have to dig up the DVD), but Grajeda was credited under the name Victor Gardell. --Tupka217 20:56, April 11, 2016 (UTC)
- Would there a way to update his "Behind The Voice Actors" profile to include his role in this episode, complete with a picture of what the character he voiced looks like? Because if there is a way to do this, i'd be impressed if there is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 15sturmelle (talk • contribs).
- You'd have to ask them. --Tupka217 09:07, April 12, 2016 (UTC)
- Was Mark Jonathan Davis ever credited as having a role in Justice League or no? I just thought i'd ask so i can get a good idea of who was credited as having roles on Justice League and who wasn't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 15sturmelle (talk • contribs).