Talk: Hawkman

Image

We need one that isn't such an extreme closeup to show more of the character's likeness. --BoneGnawer 06:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Katar Hol

(removed Katar Hol as relative, this is disproven by JLU:Ancient History)

Doesn't that episodes prove the exact opposite? That they are related? Like Shayera is the reincarnation of Hol's beloved and so on? ― Thailog 10:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The absorbacron showed that the Shayera & Katar existed, but that they were seperate and distinct entities. Carter/Hawkman realized this and gave up his pursuit of Shayera at the end of the episode. --BoneGnawer 11:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm, no. The absorbacron showed that Shayera and Katar Hol were the ancestors of Hawkgirl and Carter Hall, and Ashari was John Stewart's ancestor (which is why they all have the same voice actors). The story showed that Shayera ended up with Ashari (sort of) and proved that she and Katar Hol weren't meant for each other, unlike Hawkman thought. This is why he gives up the pursuit: he accepted his fate. The Shadow Thief even calls Hawkman of 'Katar Hol' twice after they touched the absorbacron and tells him to kill John, so that he can finally get Shayera. If Hawkman weren't the reincarnation of Katar Hol (and if there was anything to disprove it) this episode would have no point to begin with. ― Thailog 12:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not the read I got from the episode. I'll watch it again though. Remember that we can't trust what the Shadow Thief says. He is Carter's "dark side" and is attempting to fulfill Carter's wishes. --BoneGnawer 12:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This interpretation is the most common and widely accepted among fans [1] [2]. ― Thailog 12:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither of those links are written by anyone having to do with the production. The wikipedia article admits that nothing definitive is stated. "common and widely accepted among fans" is the definition of fanon, something we don't deal in here. It is up to the reader to make that sort of decision for him or herself based on the purely canon info we provide here. --BoneGnawer 12:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, then we have to base ourselves on facts, which was what I did in the first place:

1. Katar Hol is voiced by the actor who voices Hawkman (if they weren't intended to be related, like Shayera and Ashari are to Hawkgirl and John respectively, then he'd have a different voice actor);
2. if the Shadow Thief is voiced too by the same actor because he his part of Hawkman, then that works for Katar Hol too;
3. the DC Comics Hawkman was a reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian Prince (pretty much what Katar Hol was in the DCAU).

If there's anything that indicates that the reincarnation theory is not true and Hawkman is not Katar Hol reincarnated, then provide them here. In the meantime, please reinstate the information you removed based on personal readings. ― Thailog 13:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

All 3 points are conjecture. The first two are the same point and are based on flawed logic.

1. Not every character voiced by the same actor is related. Is Deadshot the same person as Wally West?
2. Your mention of DC comics continuity is correct in regard to one of the many versions of Hawkman to appear in the comics, however, as regards the DCAU, it is conjecture.

The facts are not clearly established in the episode, and since we are presenting a factual account, we cannot "fill in the blanks" with our own or other fans' interpretations. Only what has been clearly indicated on screen or clarified by the production staff should be included. --BoneGnawer 13:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but now you are distorting facts to support your view and making your will prevail.

"Not every character voiced by the same actor is related. Is Deadshot the same person as Wally West?"

How can you even begin to compare Katar Hol and Hawkman being voiced by the same actors with character like Deadshot and Wally West?! The whole point of "Ancient History" is to show how Hawkman-Hawkgirl-John love triangle emulates the same relationship of Katar Hol, Shayera and Ashari. What relevance would this arc (and episode) have if the former weren’t in fact the reincarnations of the latter? Are you saying we were watching to unrelated stories?

"The first two are the same point and are based on flawed logic."

So why do Katar Hol, Shayera and Ashari not only bear striking (if not blatantly obvious) physical resemblance to Carter, Hawkgirl and John, but also have the same voice actors if they are not ancestors/reincarnations?! What’s flawed about that logic?

"All 3 points are conjecture."

What’s conjecture? That the Shadow Thief is part of Hawkman? He states it out loud. Or that they are voiced by the same actor because of that? I think that’s an obvious conclusion — not conjecture.

"The facts are not clearly established in the episode, and since we are presenting a factual account, we cannot "fill in the blanks" with our own or other fans' interpretations."

Do you mean you wanted this "theory" (as so you call it) to be explained out loud on the show like in other shows targeted for 5-year-olds? I think the episode is pretty much self explanatory. And so far I’ve present reasons to support my "interpretation" whereas you haven’t. You merely dismiss it claiming "it is not stated on-screen or by the producers".

"Your mention of DC comics continuity is correct in regard to one of the many versions of Hawkman to appear in the comics, however, as regards the DCAU, it is conjecture."

Not "one of the many versions". In the comics, Carter Hall, which is the one that matters for our discussion, was the reincarnation of Egyptian Prince Khufu, who was killed by Hath-Set. In the DCAU, the "Egyptian Prince" that winds up dead in some way because of Hath-Set too, happens to be named a Thanagarian called Katar Hol (which is the name of a later version of Hawkman). Bruce Timm is known for taking names and background from the DC Comics and adapting them into his own arcs, but it doesn't mean this set up is conjecture just because it is different from the comics and was not clearly "stated" that the characters are reincarnations. That is clearly implied by the facts I presented. Implication is not conjecture.

The bottom line of this arc is that Hawkman believed he was meant to be with Hawkgirl because he believed their ancestors died together. However, when he learned that his ancestors did not end up together because Shayera fell in love with Ashari then he accepted he wasn't meant to be with her after all, but John was — the reincarnation of Ashari. Hawkgirl said she didn't believe in fate but after being confronted with her ancestor's story, she relinquishes and goes to Batman asking him about Warhawk, believing she is meant to be with John, like the ancient Shayera was. If these characters weren't related like you are claiming, then this wouldn't made any sense. Hawkgirl and John would simply dismiss it because they were unrelated to Shayera Hol and Ashari. In that sense, if Hawkman wasn't supposed to be Katar Hol reincarnated, then he wouldn't have given up the pursuit of Hawkgirl, whom he still admitted to love. ― Thailog 14:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: I would just like to add that I find it quite distasteful that you made these changes when we're in the middle of a conversation that will dictate those adjustments. You said "Ancient History" disproved the "theory" of Katar Hol being Carter's ancestor. However, you failed to present any proof which corroborates that claim, while you have admitted that it was your interpretation. ― Thailog 14:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but now you are distorting facts to support your view and making your will prevail.

I am simply stating facts. You are using them to draw conclusions in support of something more than is seen on screen.

I have acknowledged the line of reasoning you're describing in the Background sections because it does have merit. My point, however, is that conjecture and conclusions based on the facts do not belong in the main part of the article. I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions, but they do not belong in the main part of the article. --BoneGnawer 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You rewrote the article leaving those "conclusions" out, which makes it look like you don't agree with them and are imposing your POV. If you believe they have merit but not on the main article, then move them; don't omit them. ― Thailog 14:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I summarized them into the Background section. If you think the summary is too brief, feel free to add to it. --BoneGnawer 14:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

One point that went unspoken in this whole discussion was the repeated talk about the absorbicron being broken and being too much for a human to take. That said, we still don't know if the "past life" story is true. And the way Hawkman is written, he's semi-nuts. I think the writers left it ambiguous on purpose.--Lamlsk 01:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Carter hall is dead

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by  ‎SHONENHIKADA (talk • contribs).

Yep, but we don't incorporate the comics. --Tupka²¹⁷ 11:00, March 31, 2014 (UTC)