DC Animated Universe talk:Images/Revision

This is an open discussion, not just an admin thing. If any other editors have any opinions on these subjects, please voice them.

--BoneGnawer 14:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

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I'm going to post here our points of disagreement so that we can discuss each one of them separately in an orderly fashion. If I leave any out, please include it.

Quality

• The image should be of the highest quality available. DVD screen-captures are preferred, with television recordings and other formats being secondary. In the case of duplicate images, the highest quality image is kept.

COMMENTS: When dealing with DVD screen-captures, one should not use quality as a reason to replace (swap) pictures. If the only problem with a DVD capture is a flaw, then that image should be overwritten with the same version, but without that flaw. Examples: here and here. Compression artifacts or aliasing problems should not be grounds to substitute a DVD capture with a different shot. ― Thailog 11:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Compression artifacts or aliasing problems should not be grounds to substitute a DVD capture with a different shot. Agreed, however they are grounds for replacing with the same shot minus the artifacts and/or aliasing. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Definitely. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• The image should be an accurate, dignifying representation of the character. There are plenty of fun moments to be found throughout the DCAU, but we strive to capture moments when the character is at his or her best.

COMMENTS: To adhere to the concept of "dignifying", infobox images should not include crude or vulgar moments. The DCAU generally consists of kids' TV shows, so these moments are rare, but a handful do exist and should be avoided unless addressing a specific point. Examples include "private parts" featured prominently in an image, panty or codpiece shots, etc. Agreed. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Concerning "accuracy" the image should depict the character or item in their most consistent look in the series in question. If a character is drawn one way in the majority of appearances, but another way in a minority of appearances, the majority appearance should be used. This excludes character redesigns such as in the case of Supergirl. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) That's because of the "most recent design should be used" right? ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Yes, and further that variations in animation quality and consistency (like in the case of Elongated Man) should be treated as such and not considered an accurate representation, whereas an intentional redesign, as with Supergirl, would be the "most recent design". --BoneGnawer 18:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC) So, a picture of Elongated Man could be from any of his appearances, seeing as there was no redesign but only variations? ― Thailog 19:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Yes. The primary issue I had, which I believe you agreed with was in the previous EM image, he was suffering from "triangle chest". It was therefore an atypical representation since his other appearances showed him as his more conventional tall & thin self. --BoneGnawer 19:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Ah. Agreed, then. ― Thailog 21:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I'm reopening this per here. ― Thailog 10:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Replacement

• Replacing can take place when the original image:

1. Is uncredited and/or unlicensed;
2. Is of low resolution/quality;
   • In this case, the original picture must be replaced by the exact same version (with better quality).

COMMENTS: Uncredited images should be flagged for sourcing, not replacement. A time limit should be involved to keep uncredited images from hanging around indefinitely. Replacing with a different image should always be discussed, regardless of the reason for replacement. A minimum time period for discussion should be established to allow all interested parties to voice their opinions. At the end of the time period, the image with the most votes can be put in place. I suggest that both time periods be set at 30 days. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I agree with #1. However, this would involve polishing the Deletion policy, which states an uncredited image should be speedy deleted. Replacing with a different image should always be discussed, regardless of the reason for replacement. A minimum time period for discussion should be established to allow all interested parties to voice their opinions. At the end of the time period, the image with the most votes can be put in place. Are you referring to those cases like we did before? I think that discussion is only mandatory when the current image in use adheres to our guidelines, and there's no apparent reason to change it. Say, if someone wanted to change the image in Superman. But if an image goes against policy, then I see no reason to open a discussion to replace it with another one that does comply with our policies... In any case, 30 days may be a little too excessive for a site with so few active members. Unless I'm reading you wrong. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I agree with the time frame to delete uncredited images, but I think that the time frame for recently uploaded images should remain seven days. That's more than enough for someone who is recently contributing to the site. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Other suggestions

• The character in the infobox should be standing still.

COMMENTS: "Standing still" includes all kind of absence of movement (characters should not be talking). ― Thailog 11:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Agreed, but I'd consider this more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule. Images should not be replaced on this basis alone. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Agreed. There should be a proposed debate in this case, so that the involved parties could deliberate whether the change would be significant for the article or not. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• It should show as much as possible of the character (full-body).

COMMENTS: I don't completely oppose to this suggestion. I actually support it, but only in certain circumstances. Per here, the amount of images destined to each article is directly dependent on the amount of text that article contains. Characters like Catwoman are likely to have more pictures than characters like Audrey. That said, if a long article has 10-20 pictures, then there's no need to include a full body shot of the character in the infobox, because that character will likely have a complete representation in other images included in the article's body. Also, an infobox should contain quick-facts about the character, without lots of details. This should apply to the image too. Readers shouldn't need to see the character from head to toe right there. They can see it in other images. Not to mention that, the higher the image is, the more space it takes from the article, and the less images we'll be able to fit in there. Full body images should be used in articles less likely to have a long biography. Speedy for example, had one appearance and one minor role. There's not much we can write about that character's DCAU role that we will be able to illustrate with images. Therefore, that article should have a full body image because we won't be able to fit any other in the body of the article. On the other hand, articles like Darkseid don't need a full body (or waist up for that matter) shot because it can have many images that depict his full likeness down the article. Then, we have characters that do not have any trademark or distinguished trait that warrants a full body or waist up shot. Lois Lane only wore two outfits. Do we need to see more of her in her infobox? Hers is on of those article likely to have many pictures to depict her in various situations. We shouldn't need to see "more of her" in the infobox. Same thing with Mala and Jax-Ur. Sometimes, facial expressions tell us more about a character than outfits. Bottom line: I oppose to full body shots in the infobox because they disrupt the article and take space needed for other images. John Stewart is an example of the perfect image for an infobox. That article is very likely to have many pictures, and the infobox one not only clearly shows his face but also the most relevant/distinguished part of his uniform. Do we need to see his hands and feet right there? Faces should be as important in infoboxes as "Affiliations", "Powers" or "Relatives". Outfits can be showcased in other images, see Batman. Futher, readers should not have to enlarge infoxbox images to see the character's face. That's why we adopted a 300px standard size. That would happen if every article had full body images on the infobox. The higher the image is, the less detail we can see clearly. However, I do oppose to extreme face close-ups of, like an old one of the Question. Closeups are bad: agreed Full-body shots in the infobox: I prefer full-body or close to it. IMO, Curaré.jpg is a perfect infobox image. It gives a complete visual reference of who the article is about. I agree in concept that the more images there are in an article, the less important it is to have a full body shot in the infobox. However, we need to come up with rules and/or guidelines that will avert or settle disputes. How many images is enough to preclude a full-body shot? Regardless of the number of images, I think infoboxes ought to show a character from at least the waist up. Image:Martianmnahunter.jpg is a perfect example of an infobox image for a large article with multiple images. As agreed above, face closeups are bad. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I think Curaré is in the same league as Speedy. The article is not likely to include more pictures, so something like that is necessary. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) However, we need to come up with rules and/or guidelines that will avert or settle disputes. How many images is enough to preclude a full-body shot? I think it's not about number, but about content. If one picture within the article showcases the character's full likeness (or close to it), that should be enough to preclude a full-body shot from the infobox. DarkseidSTAS.jpg and Catwoman8.jpg seem like too different but equally acceptable prospects. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Regardless of the number of images, I think infoboxes ought to show a character from at least the waist up. Image:Martianmnahunter.jpg is a perfect example of an infobox image for a large article with multiple images. Agreed. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) But this too shouldn't be grounds for swapping images. If an article only has one waist up image (in the infobox), then it shouldn't be replaced with a full body shot — unless of course the article conforms with the criteria of Curaré and Speedy — the body shot should be included in the article's body. ― Thailog 18:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC) How's this: If an article contains 3 images or more (including the infobox), an image from the character's waist up is sufficient for the infobox. At least one of the images in the article should depict the character's full body, or the images as a group should show enough angles to give a full impression of the character. An article with two or fewer images should have a full body shot, or as close to one as possible, in the infobox. --BoneGnawer 14:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC) I like it. ― Thailog 14:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• It should be a shot from the waist up.

COMMENTS: See comments on the point above. --BoneGnawer 17:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Additions

• Images should remain unaltered. Any changes of color levels, shading, brightness, contrast, alpha, etc., should be avoided, unless justified and according to consensus.

COMMENTS: Following this discussion, and so as to avoid future arguments like this, we should include a note about altered images. It should be an extension of Formats and Cropping. We need to keep in mind though that some software capture with different results. ― Thailog 18:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I would prefer cropping everything to 4:3 unless that would crop out part of the item being depicted. 4:3 images look better IMO, but that's obviously POV. I think the rules as written should be fine, unless we add the follwing note: If there is enough "dead space" in a 16:9 image to crop it to a 4:3 aspect without losing any of the subject, then it should have the dead space cropped out. Example Superconfident.jpg.--BoneGnawer 19:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC) I think you misunderstood me. I'm not proposing to remove the cropping rule. I'm proposing to add the aforementioned item about color, brightness and whatnot. I also think that "dead space" should be cropped out (which is basically what the current rule says, "If images contain unsightly segments that distract from the primary image..."). That is, unless the "dead space" is somehow relevant or pertinent to the article (for context or whatever), then it should be kept. ― Thailog 21:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC) O.K., Lets keep the cropping rule but reword it. "Unsightly elements" is open to wide interpretation. How about: If an image contains empty space or elements other than the subject being depicted, the image should be cropped to isolate the subject with respect given to the guidelines concerning closeups. --BoneGnawer 15:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC) Agreed. ― Thailog 20:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Character Info Box Image Contradiction Discussion

1. The introductory paragraph and infobox picture should be written/taken from the point of view of the series where the character has the most appearances.
   Example: Terry McGinnis' infobox pic is taken from Batman Beyond, Static's is taken from Static Shock.
   Note: For the purposes of determining which series a character has the most appearances in, Batman: The Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures are considered one series.
   1. Exceptions may be made according to consensus. It would be just as valid for Batman or Superman's pic to come from Batman: The Animated Series, The New Batman Adventures, Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League or Justice League Unlimited. However, it wouldn’t make sense for them to come from Batman Beyond.
2. The History section of the main body of the article should describe the character from the first chronological appearance through the last chronological appearance.
3. Following the History section, there should be Alternate Timeline and Alternate Universe sections where appropriate. If an alternate timeline/universe version is a significant character in its own right, it should be separated into its own article.

Example: "Savage Time Batman" remains a section in the Batman article, but each of the Justice Lords get their own article.

COMMENTS: So, per the Talk:Mister Freeze discussion, there is an apparent contradiction between the following items: using the latest image available for said character using the likeness that appeared most throughout the DCAU This may seem like an over-simplification, but do we really need either of these rules? I think standards are good, but at a point they become pedantic and counter-productive. I think the standard of an image that befits the character (capturing him/her at his/her best) is enough, and let common sense lead the way. When I look at the Mr. Freeze page or the Catwoman page, they both seem appropriate since they [their pages] have all likenesses of the character. I think a bigger problem is, for example, how Lex Luthor's page does not have images of him as a businessman or in his power armor (or whatever it's called).--User:MichaelMogg 03:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC) I agree. I think written guidelines are important so that we can support our edits and changes. However, sometimes they can become redundant and actually hinder progress. The main reason why we wrote those infobox images rules was to avoid changes based on whims and personal preferences and subsequent edit wars. But seeing how these guidelines are conflicting and confusing, I think we'd be better off with "The infobox image should depict the character's most recognizable likeness, unless consensus dictates otherwise." We can't have a rule and then 5 exceptions for it. Character's like Supergirl should have a picture in her early uniform — because that's her most consistent, accurate and recognizable look — unless general consensus goes for the new uniform. This conforms with the current guideline and it not so complicated. ― Thailog 10:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC) Indeed, I second the alteration of the current rule. --MichaelMogg 11:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)